Turbo Charging The Dancause 6/1
Above: The Dancause Turbo 6/1, running at Andre's remote Chalet construction site in the area of Quebec.
Of course people will ask why, and others will ask why not?
sample of comments regarding Andre's Generator...
Victor Warners may have summed it up best....... "How wonderfully Crazy"
I am impressed by Mr. Dancause's setup here. Would love to see it in real life. A turbo, a starter motor, an oil pump, oil filtration. I love it. The Lister that Lister never made... It takes away from the sledgehammer simplicity of the Listeroid but what a cool experiment. Thanks George
Above: Left, John Ferguson, and right, his good friend Ernie, (both own Listeroid 12/2s). These two live in the northern parts of Canada and also own the sledgehammer that Victor mentions in his comment above. These two are Master DIYers, and I'd bet they could fix a watch with that hammer!
Wanted to thank you for sending the info along on the turbocharged Lister. Andre' is obviously a very talented and gifted craftsman. I find it very interesting to see the inventive minds of people at work. I'm also very curious as to the amount of untapped power left in this engine and how the longevity would be affected. I think 14" of water column is a very conservative boost pressure. With similar compression ratios I have run ( on other engines of course ) boosts as high as 12 psi. (24" HG ) If the egt temps are kept below 1200 degrees F I don't think you could hurt the engine. Now let's see, with an intercooler,.......? The fuel economy is certainly impressive on these units.
The Indians have models that make more horsepower at higher RPM, it stands to reason that one could raise the atmospheric pressure a little and get more work done at the same working RPM.
I have been exchanging email with André Dancause, and some months ago; I sold him a 6/1, 5KW head, and a copy of my 'Listeroid Longevity CD".
André had been wondering how this design would respond to a turbo charger, and he has spent the time to select a turbo with a turbine and compressor wheels that appear to be close to the needs of the 6/1. You may be surprised to learn that this turbo came off of a 1.6 liter V.W. engine. Most of us would guess this to be a poor match, we would think the slow speed of this engine would create problems. Considering the theory, the turbo is really a heat driven device, and the temperatures at the inlet during a good load may be more constant at 650 RPM than we first realize.
Following is an email describing Andre's efforts, I wish to thank André for sharing his data, his efforts, and for being the true Gentleman that he is. After reviewing his data, I want to know more! My life long ME friend just scolded me for using gallons instead of pounds to report fuel usage....he would be very pleased with Andre's format and method of reporting the data !
Here's André's story, I'm hoping we will have pictures and more data to share in the near future.
Here I am again bothering you with good news:
Yesterday and today were dedicated to engine tests . I finally installed every thing on my set up after I checked my 5kw generator on which I changed the grease of the two bearings which was much too heavy and caused noise to the drive end.
I made a few tests after I installed a fabricated radiator mounted horizontally and I used the original fuel tank as an coolant expansion tank.
Yesterday, I loaded my generator by trying to start my 2.25 hp air compressor, it seems too heavy to start with 90 PSI of air but, it does well when is has 20 psi Of air left in the tank. I added some load until 5200 watts but what a Smokey engine so, I decided to be reasonable and loaded it normally until light smoke comes out of the muffler. Today, I recorded the capacities of my set up. Here are the conclusions.
George comment: This is a common problem, the unit in my shop pops the breaker all too often, I have yet to fix it. Seems to me the answer is a check valve, and a pre chamber between the compressor and main tank.. A small bleed hole in the pre chamber would remove the head pressure and allow any compressor to start with less effort.
The readings were taken after one hour of continuous load and speed and this was done after half an hour of warming up and valves adjustment and without air cleaner.
So, the load was 3600 watts @ 60 hertz and like I said, a slight black smoke was visible at the exhaust which indicates that it is most likely the maximum capacity of this engine. The boost pressure in the intake manifold was 14 inches of water @ 3600 watts This is what I expected not too much because of the high compression ratio. The oil pressure was 17p.s.i. at the inlet of the turbocharger, the average water temperature was 200 degrees F all along the test. The voltage was 285V @ 60 Hz and the amperage was 12.6A at 60 Hz.
The test was performed during one full hour and the fuel consumed was 1.3 litre which means that It consumed 2.431 pounds of fuel at a density of .85Kg .L The average H.P. was 4.826 during this test plus accessories ie 12 volts alternator and oil pump. The B.F.S.C. is .504 lbs per hp hour or .095 US gallon per kilowatt hour or .2.924 hours per US gallon with a load of 3.6 Kw. I made a little modification to the connecting rod dipper since a turbocharged engine generally gets cooling jets for the pistons, I bored a 7-64th hole through It and cut its dipping end at 45 degrees and bent it in order that it pumps oil directly to the rod bearing and through the hole of the rod send this oil under the piston crown to cool it . It seems to perform well. I decided to use synthetic grease on the pushrods and rocker tips which seems to do a good job .
The only one thing I find that should be corrected is the high value of the voltage I guess this should be brought to a normal level for 60 Hz. There is also a little fuel oil leaking which seems to come from the fuel rack which has to be corrected some way.
Some days I will send you pictures of that wonderful rig which was made possible with your collaboration
Thanks for your attention and Salutations to you and your family and crew.
Following is another email snippet from André
HI , gentleman
Here is why I was so quiet over the last months constructing my camp with the help of a wonderful gen set.
You will find attached pics of the wonderful engine you sold me one year ago which runs pretty well and the building of my camp and bridge to cross the bridge to get to my camp. Up to now, the engine has started pretty well at temperatures as low as 0 degree F or -20 C without ether or other mean It burns an average of 3 litre of fuel or 3.5 quarts per 8 hour. With an average of one KwH load .
Thanks for your attention and best wishes to you and your family and crew .
A note from George on the high voltage, it is easy to lower the voltage by adding a resistor in series with the field, lots of folks run their gen sets at slightly less than 60hz, and set the generator governor at 250 volts (no load) adding a resistor is covered in the ST pages.
12/04 As of this date, Andre has carried a 5200 watt load with this turbo set, I would suggest that 2800 watts of continuous output is typical of a NA engine like this one, you will see persons report higher outputs, but you will need to know exactly how these measurements were taken to have confidence in higher figures. 5200 watts requires 10-12 HP ... this suggests that Andre's turbo is pretty effective at making some additional HP. The following pictures will show off some ideas.
What you might care to note, is there is a direct injection head that should be more effective for a turbo 6/1, and Andre has yet to even lower the compression ratio in an attempt to optimize the turbo system. I think we need to send him a new direct injection head and piston, and ask him to report back on his findings.
Note Andre's starter, there are other DIYers who have talked about doing this, but this is the first picture of a flywheel or flex plate bolted to the 6/1 shaft. Note that Andre has adopted the sliding mount for the generator, this idea was long ago sent to me by a DIYer, and it is simply an idea that I can not improve upon. If you are curious, André is building a Chalet at this site, and the old lister is running the construction tools, and lighting. if we consider what Andre says about cold starting, this may be enough reason to add the starter!
Seems that a good deal of the materials used for framing this chalet were cut from the lot, is is no surprise to me that Andre would do this. And it causes me to wonder whether there are any young people in North America to fill the shoes of DIYers who are now in their 50s or older for the most part.
Here you can see an interesting experimental cooling system, it relies on an electric circ pump, and a horizontal mounted radiator to allow for a good convection through the cooling fins. It is obvious that this setup could be used to haul off the waste heat to a point of use.
Here is an interesting picture showing the oil pump and the alternator. It's all to easy to drive other loads off the flywheels.
Here we see that the turbine inlet and compressor outlets fell in close alignment with the engine intake and exhaust. The compressor inlet pipe leads to the other side where André has mounted a proper air cleaner. Note the full flow oil filter!
You can tell when the engine is carrying more than a MAX load, there will be unburned fuel in the exhaust. Often these max loads will be very short, like those used to start a big induction motor.
Above is a picture of Andre's so called 'camp' looks pretty nice! This is typical of DIYers, we know there's little we can't do for ourselves!
following is a snippet from a favorite email André sent me when he was setting up his gen set. Reading this put a huge smile on my face... these engines are indeed like a big magnet, if you are looking to spend the day by yourself, close the doors and pull the shades in your shop, if this engine can be seen from the street, you will have company, then questions, then offers of help, and only God knows what else will follow.
As soon as I started my second engine, my problems started
I do not mean problems with this particular engine, but problem with a gentleman passing on the street which Heard that cliquetis noise and who got a little too close to it. I could not get rid of him till he puts his hand on the cranking handle and got it running as per my instructions and help . This is only my first headache .
The second problem is that in order to get him out of my garage, I had to promise to sell this engine to him in the next 15 days but , that is not all... He squeezed my tongue till I tell him that there is a version twice stronger as this one This was the beginning of the end
Because he wish to own the twin cylinder version too .The worst is that he want me to go with him and pick it up to Albany by the mid September You know too well that I do not know how much it worth for an engine like the twin cylinder. Carried up to Alb and what will drive my second generator? I will need a third engine.
So, these are the problems causing my insomnia on these days Would you know somebody having a cure for this type of headache?
The Aussies call it the Outback, my friend Andy Penney calls it the 'Deep Weeds, fact is, when you're looking for self reliance, you're likely to find it here, you're either wealthy, or you can take care of most things yourself. This is where you find some of the best DIYers.
More to follow.. and thank you Andre for sharing a wonderful power plant....we can expect that Honda will never build one like this :-)
Happy New Year DIYers !