This engine and generator combination would be on the top of Mad Max’s list, This is the stuff preppers dream of owning..
I have sold only a few hand built Lister 6/1 Gen sets during the last 15 years, and one of them is owned by Jerry Bartlett (not so crazy jerry of changzuki fame) in upper state New York. Basically, I hand selected customers for these units. All of them have DIYer skills, and naturally have respect for open flywheels and moving parts, that’s A MUST!
A Rare Utterpower Built Machine
See that valve cover? It’s solid bronze and not for sale.. This was made by Dave Clough who works for Valley Bronze in Oregon. A stock valve cover comes with the machine. This gen set comes with spares..
As for an out of town buyer. I’ll load it, it could be strapped to an open pallet.. all at added cost. write me.. george (at) utterpower.com
Utterpower PMGs fetch $1000 with drive Pulley IF you can find them. Thsi one is new out of the box..
Dictionary: To give out a slight sharp short metallic sound. transitive verb. : to cause to clink.
In the case of the lister and lister clones, what does it sound like to your ears if you’ve never heard it before? There’s so many sounds made when you crank your engine over, but you need this one to even attempt to crank it with compression.
To know a good clink when you hear one.. it is the whole purpose of this page, and you might see the page about Smoke but no fire.
GB
PS… Advertisement follows
Wanted: Full time proof reader for Utterpower postings, must work for free..
I know that 80% of the work is in proofing what you right.
A DIYer is a One-percenter, and of course posts here are intended for DIYers. If you spend most of your time over at the Huff.. this place will make all too little sense to you.
I was curious about the legal aspects of President Obama’s recent speech. It seems that he is ‘cocksure’ that many losses the insurance Industry has denied coverage on in the past are really the cause of man, at least in the Obama mind. I was wondering about when the SCOTUS might get involved in enforcing that opinion, and when policy holders might expect coverage on things once considered “Acts of God”?
One might muse that the Insurance Companies will be changing their policy language, but others will take note, it’s likely a waste of time. The SCOTUS has already cleared the way for the US Government to ‘TAKE OVER’ the insurance industry same as they have taken over the Medical Industry, and what ‘free luncher’ will not vote for it?
Warning! Big Flywheels Engines Are Dangerous! Potentially more dangerous that an AR15. Anytime you are trouble shooting, you will have the air cleaner off, and be ready to cut off the air supply at the first sign of over speed.
How many times over the years have I received this complaint? Well I’ve personally never had an engine that gave me much trouble for long till this week, and I got a full dose of smoking on the compression stroke but no fire.
Above: Audio track demonstrates the sound of the ‘clink’ the injector firing..
to give out a slight sharp short metallic sound. transitive verb. : to cause to clink. See clink defined for English-language learners » · See clink
It was the perfect situation for study, the engine a complete unknown to me all save one thing, I knew it had been running. A new head installed, a used injector, used injection pump, and what seemed like enough compression to make it fire.
I tell people it can only be a few things, and most times the delays in finding the trouble are caused by venturing too far away from the simple things that can cause the condition. You need compression, an adequate injection of decent fuel at near the right time, and it’s best you work at moderate temperatures when trouble shooting or testing an engine for the first time.
In this case, I did know this engine had run well for years, and the timing gears were installed correctly, so I did dismiss the possibility of timing problems at least for the moment.
It seems every engine is a little different, but if you’re attempting to start one for the first time, it really is best to stick to the rules, and save yourself time and frustration. Check for common problems during your assembly, and never trust that an assembled part was assembled correctly. One of the newbie errors in working with Listeroids is finding one or two examples of things being right ‘out of the box’ and assuming the next one will be too. I have seen many posts over the years by people new to slow speed commenting that their brand or choice of Listeroid is best because their one sample was found to be so nice.
In one case…… could it have been a dozen years back? A would be dealer in the USA posted: “The engine I ordered is wonderful, I’m taking orders, and will order a container load.” Later he addressed a forum and said he thought his order had been sabotaged!
Today, there are people convinced that all of India is doing much better, but thanks to contacts in far off places, I hear of similar problems, and just last month, I heard from a friend who ordered a number of Indian petters, and he said it was hard to believe they had sent him so many problems to sort.
The message you need receive is you will assume nothing, and you will deal with folks that promise to make things right if you get such a lemon, and know what they promise. Returning parts to India for a refund is not going to be a cost-effective remedy for the owner/operator.
On with the smoke but no fire story.
Remember, once you get the basics of this old Lister design, you’ll have an understanding of the multi cylinder engines, they’re pretty much the same, only more elements of the same components. If I were teaching the basics of ICEs, this would be my choice of class room engines, and planting problems for students to find would be great learning for them.
A brand new engine can hide troubles you might not think about.. the new filter can hold a bunch of bubbles and give them up slowly. Bubbles in the high pressure line can cause problems, and the first thing we attempt to get is a nice crisp CLINK sound when the injector fires, a CL—–INK isn’t good enough. But how do you know a good clink from a bad one? It’s a learning process for sure, but bubbles in the high pressure line is a source of trouble.
But maybe I tell you how this engine is acting, and how I attempt to find the problem? I couldn’t have found much more wrong!
In this case, I had the luxury of an electric starter, all so rare, and this made it an easy job to look for compression leaks, and I did feel something at the top of the head, and light piece of paper used as a flag found a wisp of air coming by the washer on the injector. I pulled the injector and noticed the hold down was bowed! This is a rather generous piece of metal, and takes some serious over tightening to bend it. As one might expect, the washer was squished as thin as a match book cover, and turned over from the original squish.
Do learn NOT to tighten more than you need to stop leaks, and then just a little more.. you don’t need two hands on a wrench here.
I changed the washer and tightened the hold down reasonably, and the problem gone. The last guy had used brute force. Test the seal with soapy water..
I cranked again, and saw a mist coming from the CS plug, could this be loose? Ahhh yes! How did that get over looked? It’s all so easy WHEN you assume an assembled head is ready to run. I unscrew the plug, check for a copper seal, and tighten same…. all looks good.
We crank again, and no joy, it’s the same.. smoke but no fire.
I stop to beat on the filter with a wooden hammer handle, and with the hose that goes to the injector return in a bottle of diesel so I can watch and see the bubbles purged. It took a bit of banging, but soon we were bubble free, this is an important step in firing new engines. Next, we go to the injection pump, and remove the high pressure fuel line and unscrew the top fitting, we are careful not to lose the spring, and remove the top of the valve, we turn the flywheel till fuel gushes from the top and the bubbles clear. We put the valve back in, and screw the top on with the spring. Next we refit the HP fuel line and we’re careful NOT to make too tight! It really doesn’t need much torque, and too much splits the ferrel and you’ll need a new HP fuel line! Splitting that ferrel means it leaks forever more till you change the fuel line. Tight enough not to leak and just a little more is all you need.. Next crack loose the top fitting at the injector and crank with the rack WIDE open for the longest possible pump stroke, as you crank look for fuel to gush by the fitting, and there’s lots of it, slowly tighten the fitting and keep turning the flywheel. Tight enough to stop the leak and a little more.. Don’t use two hands!
A new attempt to start…In my case, we still have smoke and no fire..
I have the air cleaner, and Muffler removed, make sure you do this! If you ever have a run away engine, you just need put the palm of your hand over the intake to kill it..
I listen close as the engine is brought up on compression with both hands on the flywheel.. I hear leaks with an ear at the intake port and exhaust. Are they bad ones? No, but it takes so little to check the valves, so let’s do it!
The head is on it’s side on the bench in five minutes.. I have a small wooden tool I made to compress the valve springs. The hole over the valve is large enough to reach in and take the keepers out.. I leave the spring compressed, and remove the valve.
I blued the face of the valve seat, and put the valve back in. A screw driver in the slot in this valve allowed me to move the valve back and forth and check for proper contact. It looked ugly! Fact is, the valve fitted didn’t really seem to match the angle of the valve seat very well, so I grabbed another set of valves , re-blued the seat and found them a far better fit.
With Listeroids we assume nothing, One hundred can be checked and found good, and the next not so good, do not play the game of probabilities or you will get burned.
These valves and seats were far closer, and it seems the valves found in the head were done on a machine with the angle off a tad? Maybe the shop boy doing the job? With the new valves, I added some valve grinding compound, and in a few minutes I had a much better fit. I cleaned the valves and seats with solvent, cleaned them several times, lubed the stems with assembly grease and put it all together.
With HP fuel line purged, we attempt to crank it over again.. smoke and no fire!
Hmmmmm, but now I’m fairly certain we have great compression, since the engine was running fine at one point in the past, and the inside of the liner looked excellent with the piston at BDC, and not a single skuff or hair line mark found, and no leak heard from the crank case, I assume (for the moment) we have adequate compression.
Since this engine is for sale, why not check the injection pump? Maybe a complete rebuild just because we can? Is it possible this pump has a problem?
In less than two minutes, the pump was off and under the drill press, I used it like an arbor to press down on the bottom of the pump and take out the keeper ring. On my CD is an article showing this pump apart, and how to assemble it..
I didn’t find anything too alarming inside the pump, but for good measure I replaced the barrel, and plunger, and the delivery valve, that’s pretty much a complete rebuild and the spring felt fine.
I didn’t see an obvious problem, but cleaned it all, and made sure the rack and pinion traveled fully on assembly.
I pulled the roller tappet and checked the roller, I found a good quality roller in good condition, and thought about finding rollers in engines that were never finished! Lumpy might be a good description of the worst ones found.
Soon it’s all bolted back together, and fuel lines bled. It’s now late, and the shop doors down to keep the noises in.. We engage the starter, and more smoke.. then pop pop pop! I kill it all, roll up the door and let the smoke out.. We need wait till a decent time to do more..but fire…. we do have fire!
So many things found wrong, and it’s a reminder, that if you leave Murphy half a chance to make you feel foolish, he’ll do it every time. Check it all on assembly!
The real test comes with a load test, and for that you need a load.. Generators are near the ultimate, and I expect to make about 3500 watts at near sea level. If we don’t make that, we need check more things. I’ve found that a few degrees of timing one way or the other in this engine doesn’t make a lot of difference, so don’t expect 15% more or less horse power change with a few degrees of timing change one way or the other.
Next morning, I disconnected the linkage totally and started the engine, it took some time to clear all the fuel out, but soon it was idling slow and smooth, and slamming the rack open gave a quick response. It’s sounds great!
I have a nice clear CLINK now, but I’m not sure I found anything bad in the Injection pump. All looks very good. I am now among those who have fought the condition of smoke but no fire all the way.. it wasn’t exactly a quick fix this time 🙂
As we all watch this storm roll through, thoughtful people know there will be more to follow, a generator could be a great investment, Governments at all levels have never promised you more, but you know they can’t be there to power that simple little motor in your gas furnace so your family can be warm in the middle of an outage.
Storms have rolled through for longer than man has existed, and it’s a guarantee, there’s more to come. I was wondering today how many are waiting for Al Gore to bring and end to storms? How many are listening to Bill Nye the Science Guy? Bill… just how much ‘hands on’ does this guy have? He did have a Job as a Boeing Engineer for a while, but my bet is that the majority of DIYers have more hands on, he’s been more focused on comedy, and science for kids. Yes a mechanical engineer he is, and so many like him at Boeing. Not a bad thing at all. But here in the Puget sound Basin, we have so many of them, and we make jokes about them. Example: And why did he build a house with such a goofy floor plan? Answer: because he’s a Boeing Engineer.
But seldom do you find a Boeing Mechanical Engineer who wants to lead the parade on the Global warming debate. A good Boeing engineer knows his limitations. I guess I write this to say.. there’s everything to be found on the internet and beyond, every opinion, and every kind of product. It’s the reason we invest our own time to study. And we ask questions.. like why do people wear bow ties?
Today, we should all give thanks we are safe and warm, and for those who are not, we pray they don’t take risks with gasoline fuel. That they don’t refuel a generator near the house, don’t even bring it inside the garage. These are times when no one may be able to help IF you manage to start a fire, so you will be extra cautious. Know about the fumes, and the cases where they’ve built up in a garage and were touched off by a near by pilot light. and don’t we know about carbon monoxide, and the people it has killed.
Maybe we do take the risk of giving advice and helping a neighbor when we see them taking too much risk? It might be better than wishing we had done so later.
Gasoline is dangerous stuff… it need be handled with as much respect as a loaded gun, and maybe New York really should limit the size of fuel cans to seven ounces.
In the days prior to Athens becoming a great Naval Power, there was large vein of Silver found that made Athenians rich. It lead to the question, what to do with that wealth? History tells us what we need to know.
There are countless examples of good and poor decisions since that time, and history has recorded so many of them. So why is it your think you need a crystal ball to predict at least part of your future?
Consulting the Oracle? If you had the opportunity, would you waste it all with a dumb question? Sure, there are plenty of statements to find, but VERY few questions posed in HCPV. It’s all so easy to find what I think are truly deceptive claims, and all so easy to associate them with self-interest, a revenue stream for those who write, a job, a career. But who ever asks a good question? Who challenges the claims? Who asks for the Devil’s details? and why is that?
It’s all so easy to find examples of self-interest, a favorite of mine is the Mantra from the NREL about Multi Junction Cell Efficiency, the ability to make more energy per square foot in the lab. A person with a day in the field might ask, and just how many riddles need be solved before that MJC is of any value under the sun? And if you were to solve those riddles, how would it compete with existing solar PV (Dollars/KWH) including ongoing maintenance?
Perhaps we muse how we form a question for the Oracle? Maybe we even ask how others would form the question? Some examples? Why not join in and help me form the better Question?
Here’s some I would expect to be asked, and from whom:
NREL leadership: “How do we assure future funding, and how can we keep the public’s interest and support in what we do?”
LUX Research: “How do we find new clients, build our brand, and most important of all.. generate revenue?”
The Huffington Post: “Mirror Mirrow on the wall, Don’t you think we’re Greenest of All?”
THe Citizen: “How do I preserve the very limited resources I’ve accumulated when my Government has made worthless my savings, and now like a Thief in the night… they steal what’s left via inflation. What should I do with the few dollars I have left?”
And what is it the impartial man would ask? Perhaps we find him first! Our Founders knew of the problems, and they did put safeguards in place, but we’ve long since abandoned them, it’s why we find ourselves here.
Not only do common voters expect a free lunch, now they want free and painless freedom.. what to do? I guess it’s time to read what happened in the past, and what worked best for men who can still think for themselves.
A lot of things work for backup, but lots of running hours cause us to pay closer atttention to our designs. I’ve been studying a generator that was in the field for 10 years, and ran as much as 12 hours a day. The weakest part of the design was the generator mount, it ran a lot of years before a part broke on the sub frame, but it did break, and Murphy will assure it breaks at the worst possible time. It caused me to ask.. how would I do it differently in the future?
There’s a list of things I like to consider in DIYer design, but being able to remove a sub assembly quickly and take it to a work bench, or better place to work on it is a high priority in my designs. If we meet this goal, we also make it easy to remove a part to gain access to what’s behind it or under it. I placed the locking bolts on the right because the generator sets flush on the other end, and here on top and to the right, they are easy to see, and quickly locked or unlocked with a racheting box end and a single hand, the other hand sets the belt tension.
In addition, I try and avoid designs that others will have a hard time duplicating.. like long sloted holes for adjustments. Not everyone has the equipment to make them.
A generator sub frame should be firmly mounted to the frame, as movement can cause bad things to happen over 40,000 or more hours.
So here’s a latest attempt to make it quick and easy and still clamp the head in place tight and secure. The video was shot on my cell phone, Hopefully you’ll get the idea, and maybe even better my starting place. Don’t let that generator vibrate on the rails, it’ll cause a problem sooner or later.
As we develop our ideas, it is nice to avoid rountine tasks that take three or more hands. Let me offer you an example of another thing you might see. On this LisGen-6/1, the oil drain plug and the large access door are at one end of the machine, and easily accessed. A pan easily catches an oil drain, and the big door is right there and un-obstructed to do any kind of work you need do. I’ve seen a few DIY Gen Sets constructed where the generator sat on that end, and made far more difficult the access.
Lister-Door-Access
We are DIYers, and few of us are professionals in design, but I doubt we’ll be able to top some of the blunders made by pro designers. Some recent example given by DIYers? 2007 Toyota Prius Head Light bulb replacement. A most expensive and time consuming task. Others? How about the Chevy Monza, where the engine had to be jacked off it’s motor mounts to change a spark plug? We DIYers can do far more thoughtful work.
A caption for the above picture? “Oil change time! I brought my friend along, we’re just gonna set this 230 pound gen head aside and put a pan under the drain plug”.
Just one more bit of advice, I’ve seen some thoughtful builds, and on the final install, that important access door was wedged up tight against a corner in the gen shed. I am a believer that Murphy takes note, and visits early to teach us that we need install a machine designed to be rebuilt in place in a place where we can rebuild it in place 🙂
Murphy seems to teach us more lessons over a life time than any other Teacher.
Tools required to make this Subframe mount? A composite cut off saw, (cheap at Harbor Freight). A drill motor and drill bits, and a welder.
It was many years ago I asked a friend in India, “just how many standards are there in the making of Listeroid engines?” I had given the example of the ID at the top of the Tappet Guide. This was a surface I had made a tool to grab hold of, but soon I realized that India had no standard for this ID, and each machinist took the liberty to finish it as he wished, and my tool only fit a portion of the tappet guides made 🙁 Yes, I had assumed way too much.
The answer I received, ” for many things, individual shops do what they think best”.
Today I’d like to give another example, and this is CS Standard (Listeroid) Valve Guides. Steve Hutson in Australia recently wrote me an email about the Lister 6/1 engines in his country (real ones), They generally have one press in, and one screw in Valve Guide. Some where between 1958 and present, the Indians thought better, and made both sides ‘press fits’. This lowered the cost, and since it’s a world standard for valve guides today, it’s highly probable that no benefit was lost other than backwards compatibility with the older original engines and earlier copies they made.
I didn’t research to see what David found Dursley to have done, they may have dropped the screw in at some point as well?
But today, we might ask, just what does a standard clone valve guide look like? And if they are different why? How long should a guide be, and if it’s longer or shorter what is the advantage or disadvantage? I volunteer to give at least one answer. If the guide is so long the valve can not seat, then it’s too long. As for typical, I can tell you that most times the exhaust valve is fitted with the longer valve guide.
The picture I enclose is of guides removed from what I’ve come to think of as a standard Listeroid 6/1, they were removed from a head about 2003 vintage. The valve guides to the right are from Central Maine Diesel and look very much different from the parts they display on their ‘on line parts order page’. But it was standard parts I ordered.
The hex head on one guide make me curious, I’m still the student, as I know I haven’t yet seen it all, nor do I know why it is. My first thought is this guide is a universal part, and is finished according to need. If it’s a batch made for the screw in guides, it gets threads, if not, it’s built as a press in. If it need be shorter, it gets cut off?
Hi George, I have been trying to find info on how to calculate the fuel consumption for a backup generator that I would like to build, but am not having much luck. Nobody I know has a clue where to look and I have looked online quite a bit. I’m guessing that I am just not looking in the right place. It’s easy to calculate the total volume consumed, but I’m not sure how to figure the liquid fuel converted to vaporized fuel and the air it would displace in the cylinder, and keep the A/F ratio in the correct range. (I am considering propane or gasoline) Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. I have always been a hands on DIY person, and the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don’t know. But I enjoy learning new things. Thanks for putting your work online. I enjoy the articles. Sincerely, Eric H.
Eric, the wisdom in what you say! talk to any Gang Greenie, and you’ll soon learn the vast majority have no doubts as to what they know! The Opposite of skeptical really is gullible, and there really are good examples of oxymoron close at hand. today’s example I give, Huffington:Scientific.
Maybe the first question is what kind of generator should we build?
It was not long ago I saw a bone head article in a popular auto magazine about E85 delivering better mileage in an auto than petrol gasoline bought at the pump. The car… a flex fuel vehicle. Obviously the author flunked 8th grade science, as it takes little more to find the flaw in his article.
Fuel consumption numbers are easy WHEN we calculate from end to end. We best NOT make the same mistakes as Gang Greenies and work from one side towards the middle.
The internal combustion engine driving a generator head is a very inexpensive tool for the DIYer, there are some ways to fool yourself, but if you stick with the most basic rules can can do quite well.
Rules:
No one uses volume when they want their work respected.. even in our hobby groups like here. Use weight to measure fuels.
Postage scales that plug into USB ports are great tools to measure fuel used.
Loads on the generator MUST be pure resistive. (this takes your ability to screw up on calculating real power as you need not compensate for power factor.
You will use respected equipment to calculate power production, and those used power meters you can buy on ebay might be a good choice.
Attempt to keep your work and experiments inside the confines of grams/KWH figures, longer runs are best, starting the measure when the engine is at operating temp. Recording air temp, cooling water temp, exhaust gas temp and more add value to your work.
Of course there’s more.. checking valve lash, engine condition, using the appropriate lube, it can all make a difference, and should be part of your notes.
Once you have a base line, you can attempt to make more power with better intakes and exhaust, better economy, less noise and more.
This can lead to fun. Others, please consider adding your recommendations in comments.. including taking me to task..
According to through the meter best hour performance as viewed through EPE website, the Hatch Power Plant made a best hour at 4005KW today. This is the best figure I’ve seen in a long time, and it’s only down 195KW from the better figures unofficially reported at 4200KW.
What does it mean? It means that there’s been a very serious effort to fix problems in the power plant, the amount of labor hours and parts it took makes me curious, but I’ll say this, there are some techs out there serious about keeping stuff on line…. so I think…
Todays’ performance looks very close to the cheaper and less complex, likely easier to maintain Road Runner.
