JB Shah, Lovson
If you’ve read the article on the utterpower CD about how slowspeed engines are made in India, JB Shah above was the man who made the viagra super active effort to give us a best look into how a Lister Type Engine was made thru the wonderful series of pictures and the historic account of engine building in India. This is an example of JBs willingness to go far beyond taking an order and shoving it towards the next desk. Lovson has a secret weapon.. people who know and understand the slow speed business and who know the West, they have an excellent command of english, and speak the language far better than a few of my Scottish friends 🙂
Some 30 years ago, there were a number of Auto Manufacturers that were heavily into racing. Some race engines arrived here from overseas complete minus piston rings. the race team engine builder put the engine on a work stand, pulled each piston and fit the engine with a set of previously fitted and gapped rings.
The Reason? The engine was brought in as parts, and at that time it was far more complicated and expensive to import a race engine due to the tariffs, red tape, and more that existed at the time.
In our low speed engine hobby, the weight of cast iron complicates shipping, We are forced to pay a lot extra in fuel surcharges, and it seems that our government is currently doing all they can to help drive up fuel costs long term. I received an email from a reader that was interested in buying a low speed generator set in Washington State and shipping it back East. He claimed the shipping bid he received was $1500.00! Most of use would have expected $600 or less, as we know a lot of trucks are loaded with fluff, and shippers like to to bid on dense loads.
The high cost of Interstate shipping makes it reasonable to consider importing on your own… especially if you live a reasonable distance from a port, or if you get a bid from a local shipper to pick up your freight and haul it to your door and know the charges beforehand. A pickup or small trailer works great, and you quickly learn you can move the world on a pipe roller.
Here’s the key article to understanding personal import. Last import I did, the fee was $125 just to fill out a form to meet the requirement of notifying the port that my stuff was scheduled to ship! Notice these requirements and expenses are not part of personal import requirements.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/215
Of course you’ll need a contact: joanna@lovson.net gets you started.
http://www.slowspeedengine.com/
There’s a lot of people who want engines or parts still, but importing a complete engine is illegal. Importing an Air compressor is OK, and converting an Indian Air compressor back into an engine is a 45 minute job for a DIYer. Since India has a LONG history of using engine parts for air compressors, it’s a natural thing.
With this said, you can visit Slowspeedengine.com and look around, you’ll note there’s an air compressor on these pages, it’s based on the LG engine series, and there are other engines that could be delivered as air compressors I’m sure.
Assure that the air compressor is ordered, and the ‘selected parts kit’ which has everything you need including a DVD showing how to put the parts on the Air compressor to turn it back into an engine. Of course you know your finished work must meet current emissions!
Recently, I have noticed that shipping prices have gone quite high for interstate here in the USA, this might allow you to order directly from India using the personal import method and lower your overall cost of parts or air compressor!
- Joanna, Lovson
JB Shah and Joanna at Lovson form a team that gets things done! They understand the Business of export. And have communication skills that rival other organizations I have worked with. I’ve found that good communication is key.
In closing, there are a lot of us that feel more comfortable with parts on hand, We may never put all the parts together, but we see them as an appreciating commodity that will only gain value when a government is hell-bent to keep spending which WILL drive the value of >our< dollar further down the toilet. Know the rules and follow them, I’m not advocating you break the law, if you build, verify your emissions and meet the EPA’s regulations.
All the best,
George B.
Good info George, thanks. It pays to shop around for freight rates in country or not. The biggest savings in country will come from shipping to a business address instead of a residence. As an example I just had a twin listeroid shipped over halfway across the country for $370, the rate to my house intead of my business is close to double that, why? they have to factor in nobody being home, narrow streets, no place to turn around and more screwing around in general then when they back up to a dock. Find somebody with a dock you can ship to if you ship by truck and have none of your own, dont forget to flip the towmotor guy a $50 and have a friend for life, it will save big time in the end. I wish some people who have done the personal import thing would post who they used for a broker and the exact costs involved.
Butch,
Good thing about personal import, is you don’t need a broker..
OK George for the ignorant (me), assuming the shipment meets the needed criteria all I would need to do is fill out Form 3461 and send it in before the shipment arives. Then once here I just show up at the dock and tell customs I am there after shipment xyz and pay duty? Sounds way too easy but great! I suppose that Joanna is familiar with all this? I have spoken to her and you are indeed correct that she seems very knowledgable abut the entire process.
Butch… I was thinking, if a towmotor guy had a lot of customers like yourself, he’d be on Obama’s ‘tax the rich hit list’.
George, You mean the personal jet crowd? LOL
We need keep perspective here. Joanna is good, but we can not expect her to know or keep up with our ever changing and sometimes curious laws. Her job is to get you paper work on the arrival of your shipment and have all of what you need to pick it up. This is done thru customs. She can’t know local shipping rates, and all, and if she were to try and contract delivery to your door, it would likely cost her more than if you did it.. and of course she would need to pass those costs on to you.
As the PDF warns, you have so many free days to claim your goods.. once that passes, you start paying storage fees, and it can be expensive.
As far as customs are concerned, it’s always best to allow them to ask the questions, and for you to be polite and not ramble on in giving an answer.
Many thanks, I wasn’t plain but was indeed talking about picking up at the port, sorry. By the time a person pays a service to take the crate to a shipping company and also pay freight to his door he can drive a long ways. Those of us not a long distance from a port have an advantage to those 2 days inland. I may try this route if parts kits become unavailable.
You can designate anyone to drop by the customs office and act as your agent according to what I read in that PDF. Seems to me, a local shipper could offer this service, maybe some already do?
It’s all about keeping the door open, and being able to enjoy our hobby… whether you have a dealer selling parts locally, OR you find it cheaper to do the personal import thing.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems the personal import option on form 3520-21 seems the “Personal Import”, Item 23, allows for the exclusion to allow the import of this engine (ie: listeroid) for personal use using the form CBP 3461, without re-configuration to an Air Compressor. Needless to say, keep the purchase amount less than $2000, so don’t get a generator head on it.
Now, I am no EPA genius or Import/Export “Guru”. Today is July 4th, so I plan to call the EPA tomorrow. Once I get some info such as yes/no and what any tariff might be, I’ll try to update.
If the answer is yes, I recommend getting it done as the US Government is only getting bigger and more intrusive.
Forgive you? God, forgive all of us please. Some of what we read seems abigious, and when we do get it right, they (the EPA) change the rules. I’ve given the example of the EPA ruling to drop the stationary exemption on a certain date, and then NOT following thru on that date. That drove a few suppliers out of the business early which had a profound effect on our hobby. Others decided not to entertain the kit engine idea, and thought it would only invite trouble.
There is much to read on the EPA’s pages, and I have read sections on emissions.. it is my unprofessional conclusion that the only engine left that is exempted from emissions standards is a HOBBY engine like the antique engines of the past build to a smaller scale, and I think that scale was also spelled out. As I recall they worded their ruling to assure you weren’t going to make viable power. In addition to this, the exemption of a hobby engine states that it will only be run at rallies or events where these engines are occasionaly displayed and shared with other hobblists and or the public. Considering the EPAs efforts to ‘spell out’ the exemption for scale models, I’m fairly certain you can not import a completed engine AND meet the EPA and or Customs rulings.
What I think you have a right to do is import an Air compressor and parts to build an engine, or a parts kit that might be used to convert it back to an engine. There are literally thousands of rifle kits out there that will NEVER be put together, it is the sum of the parts that are collectable and appreciate. In some cases it would be illegal to put these parts together depending on what State you are in, but owning them as a parts kit is 100% legal. They are seen as a hedge against inflation, and some have appreciated 4 to 10 times in price already.
stop here… rant follows….
Consider the two and one half dollar 1929 American gold coin. today, the ‘melt price’ is worth $183.50 cents. The coin is worth more. You can say Gold is high, but others will tell you it’s really all about spending far more money than we earn as a nation….. “just like Greece”.
At the heart of the problems with the American Economy (the falling value of the dollar) is a mentality that the government is responsible to serve and care for the people and provide for them, to assure that wealth is transferred from those who have too much, to those who have too little. In a very short time, the dollar has lost so much value against the Indian Rupee, that one needs to question whether it’s worth buying Indian cast iron, but others will tell you it will take twice or more dollars to buy the same goods shortly. As I watch Politicians, I see a good many of them want to be whatever the majorty of voters want, as we’ve been warned, there may be a day when all the chickens will march through the gate of a pen to be corn fed, and us free range chickens will be a thing of the past. Seems to me there are many on the left that demand free range chickens, but they themselves demand to be pen fed…
HAPPY 4th of JULY!
Wow. I have have an urge to stand up and start clapping. You are exactly right. The way our money is being handled by the Fed is the issue, not to mention all the free loaders out there.
Oh, and yes, chickens is my next project. 😉
I am thinking that when I call tomorrow to the EPA I will ask for a “Determination Letter” stating the exact transaction of a complete engine to be allowed…if I am so lucky. This is a similar tactic used for Sales Taxes and such. Otherwise, yeah, the conversion may be the only way…for now, as they will likely try to limit that.
Otherwise, possibly having the engine separated and noted as parts would be the only way other than the Air Compressor way.
Thanks for the response, and more to come.
We’ll all wait for your input Mark…. more people should call the EPA.
Update:
Complete Engine:
I called the EPA. The form 3520-21 seems the “Personal Import”, Item 23, was “meant” for people immigrating from other countries that want to bring their lawn mower or such, that is a Gasoline “spark plug” type engine with them. If it were Diesel, the only way for anybody to import such an engine would be if the manufacturer were to go through the extensive cost and time of becoming blessed by the “All Knowing, Supreme Entity” known as the EPA.
Parts:
So the second question was, how about if I repair an existing old diesel engine. He noted that any repair of any engine that is not certified by the EPA would be in violation of the “Clean Air Act”. He noted that the only Diesel engines that could be blessed for repair would be a newer engine that has the electronics the allow the fuel to be used more completely, thus, better performance for Me and better for the environment.
So in short, No complete engine, No parts for a lister type engine. Re-configuration of a lister type from Air Compressor would be in violation of the Clean Air Act and subject to anal probing and other such methods of getting information out of subjects.
So I guess I’ll be looking into getting a Military style Generator MEP-002A or MEP-003A. Less hassle, and luckily, my Brother is a diesel mechanic.
Mark,
You got the standard Answer I’m sure, but think about the reality of what they ask.
end of reply.. rant follows….
With modern diagnostics, it’s highly probable that you (the owner) could locate a stuck EGR valve in an engine and replace it. I’m not so sure that it is legal for you to replace that part unless you re-certify the engine. I’d guess about half or more small repair shops break the EPA rules every week. The EPA needs to higher an Army of people to Police those who sell parts, and repair shops too! There’s a lot of law breaking going on!
Another question.. should an auto parts store be allowed to sell you tune up parts? Maybe you should be certified and licensed to make the repair and be able to prove you have the emissions equipment, AND that it has been calibrated to assure it’s accuracy?
As for your Military engine idea, do they meet present tier emissions?
I doubt parts are illegal to import, it’s more than likely illegal to construct or repair an engine and NOT re-certify it.
What we likely get into is the same arguments made in the Gun Trade, what’s a part, and when does a part become illegal to own? Like I said, some people like to collect the legal parts kits and own them ‘just in case’. Some people are convinced there will be no US Government soon, as they’ll burn out the printing presses from over use.
Americans (at least some of them) have always planned for hard times. Stocking parts that may never come together is going to be a reach for the EPA, but totally in align with Lisa Jackson’s ambitions I’m sure. A step up from that… is banning you from owning round stock because you might make a smooth bore rifle out of it, or perhaps an illegal engine part.
As I watched the Fourth of July celebrated here, the air was thick in the Puget Sound Basin. We saw the moon through a thick haze. For those who are cocksure Man made global Warming is a problem, they should not set off fireworks, no encourage their children to do so. I wonder how many fireworks were bought with food stamps? Seems the people who spend the most can least afford it.
But all around me were highly illegal fireworks bought on the Indian reservation. Many of us received a phone call from the county saying these were illegal and fines could be issured. I hope the EPA will recruit the required field agents to address the fourth of July problem..
Take a look at that shovel you own.. it could be used to toss a cow pie in the local water supply.. makes as much sense to ban the shovel than declare Co2 a dangerous gas, so maybe that’s next? But… we know the ban on CO2 is all about collecting money to fuel a totally different way of life for Americans.
When I was a kid, you could buy dynamite at the local hardware store.. caps and fuse too! Now you need a license to buy, and you need another license to use it!
retail auto parts may be a thing of the past shortly.. Is it possible that the Government will want to run the parts stores just like they do in some states for whiskey and stronger spirits? Who in the heck knows what they’ll do next?
Emissions systems have come a LONG ways, what adjunct system is available for you to fit? Is it against the law for you to experiment? Who is qualified to experiment? What certification or license do they hold?
Yeah, I thought I would leave that rant to you. I am with you 100 %. I am sure I violated the EPA “blessing” on my Dodge Cummins Engine when I put a 3rd party fuel pump on it. Gotta love it. Naturally they come across intimidating so to try to get us all afraid of the EPA Swat Team (I doubt they could even come up with a decent Soft Ball Team). Anyway, I have been jogging back and forth between a Lister Gen setup vs. a MEP-002A via auction site due to largely path of least resistance with a pretty good outcome. I have come to the conclusion to go with the MEP as I can get 4 of them for the cost of the single lister setup.
Thanks!
We really need to play hardball with the EPA, when one of their people in the phone pool says you can’t import parts, you need ask if you can get a letter stating that the import of diesel parts is illegal.
As for you choice.. you are correctly sorting out what you can buy with a weak dollar.. Dumping of Government Surplus VS new products where you must trade for an appreciating currency..
George;
In your comment are you implying that for some people it might be a wise chose to just buy a few big box store generators and forgo the lister types due to cost and hope for the best.
Not at all… my post is more about approaching the topic with some reality. Finding a slow speed engine will be more difficult, and there are more things to consider than prior to the EPA ban. You will expect supply and demand to play into the equation, and for the price to go up.
George;
Thanks for your reply
Supply and demand aside, I know whatever i get I will be at the 3k mark “ish” I guess my question might be leading more toward what type of engine would you recommend for someone not living of the grid. I would like to have an engine that i can work on and that will last countless hours and is reliable. Going through your site i have not found my answer. Is there a new type of engine that will work as good as a lister? I see posts of the Chinese type changfa engines, however there is not much detail on the web as far as forums or you tube that go into detail about power generation. Can you go over some of the lister considerations that you mentioned prior to the EPA ban, in case i am forgetting something. George, just point me in the wright direction.
thank you
John p
It’s an individual decision, as there are so many variables. Part of the lure to slow speed is simplicity, lower noise, and inexpensive and easy to install parts. The world is not static, we must change as it does.
George, RE: fireworks
Funny how similar minds work. I was thinking the exact same thing as I watched the central Ohio sky fill with smoke during our fireworks. Same thing I think when I watch hotrod diesel pulling tractors, and NASCAR. God help us if we emit a puff of smoke, dust or noise while providing a service, a product and a few jobs BUT in the name of fun everything is fair game including pollution. A good example of just how screwed up we are as a people to allow such to come into law.
I think a very good thing to do would be to send the EPA in on every sporting event. How about first thing the NASCAR winner must do is pass a smog test, Oh ya, did I forget noise ordinances?? What happened to your muffler young man?? HORRERS!!! you arent even running a catalitic convertor!!! AND you unhooked the ABS brakes to boot.
How about the air quality people being out in force on the 4th of July?? Shut her down boys, you aint polluting my air on account of no fireworks display.
Its all pure insanity and as you say all about taxes, fees and fines, not about pollution.
It’s all about “walking your talk.”
If you are a ‘warmer’ you shouldn’t buy $300 worth of fire works and help set the town on fire.
seems like i am always late the the party, but here is my .02
my thinking it is probably best not to ask any more questions than is
absolutely necessary of any government entity. much like stepping up when the Sargent asks for a volunteer, we all know there are some folks you really don’t want to be on a first name basis with in the first place.
good design will then limit the problem to a significant extent, running any engine (compliant or not) for 16 hours per day just doesn’t make sense on so many levels, however consider the option
of running for shorter times and getting more done. if for instance a design can accomplish the same end goal running the engine for 2 hours instead of a simpler design running for 16 hours the result is a dramatic reduction in emissions no matter what engine you use.
another consideration might be scheduling hours of operation that are outside those hours that folks might take note? certainly anytime other than the standard 9 to 5 might limit exposure? operation during what might be sleep time for neighbors and having the thing isolated/insulated to the point no one hears it, that would also limit exposure?
perhaps a dual fuel design using a clean/green fuel such as nat/gas as the primary fuel? coupled with the above suggestions and you have little exposure, and a clean machine anyway?
bury the exhaust and use the byproducts for promoting plant growth? even if one worries about eating such plants certainly ornamentals might be put to use?
in conclusion, don’t ask the epa for their blessing, it isn’t coming.
buy a compressor and if you are so inclined convert it to operation as an engine. design a hybrid system to limit run time, schedule that runtime to off hours. if you have availability to nat/gas use it as a dual fuel source to make the engine even cleaner. bury the exhaust and use its byproducts to promote plant growth. and …
as much as one wants to show off the system, probably best to never mention it to anyone.
bob g
George ,
Well , I jumped in with both feet and ordered the LG6 Air compressor with the selected parts kit from Lovson . I asked to have it shipped to Wilmington on the east coast because I am only 2 hrs drive from there. I am wading through the paperwork process. I’m sure it gets easier after you do it a few times , but it is a little confusing the first time for me , anyway . I got notice that the shipment will arrive in NYC and then be trucked down to Wilmington for some reason. I guess they didn’t have a ship going to Wilmington . Then I get notice from Pegasus Maritime , Inc , that the shipment has been selected for VACIS inspection in NYC . I am still trying to figure out when I fill out the CBP form 1651 . I was thinking I would have to deal with customs when I picked up the shipment in Wilmington , but I suppose it has to clear customs in NY now . Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
Gary,
I think it’s very important that we document the process and the charges. Personal import is (was) streamlined to cut through a lot of red tape. The inspection is likely part of the new federal ‘port security’ operation, and they will either Xray it or remove a cover or panel to look inside, They might even take the door off the lower sump and look for explosives. Expect a $25 charge for them looking at the crate. Customs is there to take your call and help answer questions, but the better answers seem to come from ‘online’
George ,
I’ll be glad to post a full report once I get through the process so any others contemplating doing the same thing might know what to expect . Not that it is going to be the same everytime , but every bit of information we can collect helps . CBP is reluctant to fully advertise their intentions in order to keep the bad guys guessing. Too bad the red tape afffects the good guys more than it does the bad guys .
Hey Gary, how about an update? I am really interested in how it is going.
Pingback: Import of Engines, Air Compressors, or other crated Items. Lovson News! | UtterPower.com
Boy learn a lesson from Vito Corleone. “Never let them know what your thinking”.
Going to the EPA and asking if its ok. Really? I live out here in La La Land, Kalifornia. You don’t ask. You don’t tell. Your neighbor will turn you in to CARB the Air Resourses Board. Not even bother with the EPA. I would just do it and leave it at that. Phisssst, hey Mister you want to buy ____?? “As California goes so goes the nation” Watch Out my friends….
Just order an Air Compressor..
The bottom line on the restrictions on slow speed imports is this: I did the math on fuel consumption using data from Lovson specs on the LG6 and found that I could use a lot more electricity than I do now and would still save money as compared to purchasing grid power. It isn’t about emissions at all.
Philip, the bottom line includes labor, parts, and more.. unless your time is free, that rate you pay the utility is better than you think, they have the economy of scale, it’s very difficult to beat them at >their< game.
LOVSON import of dismantled slow speed diesel or a compressor?
I reciently contacted Joanna at Lovson inquiring about importing a 2 cylinder engine rather than the single cylinder compressor with conversion kit. I wanted more HP than the compressor conversion would supply. Curiously the 2 cylinder 16 HP engine ($1825.00) is less expensive than a 1 cylinder 16 HP engine ($2530.00) FOB Indian Port. The Dismantled engine comes in 3 crates Head, Block, and crankcase. This apparently allows import without violating the EPA rules. Of course assembling the engine would then make one a criminal if the engine was run.
Pat, for whatever reason, innovation and research just doesn’t happen much in India very often. I have studied it for many years, and perhaps the root cause is a religious belief that all is in the hands of the All Mighty no matter what we as individuals do? Years ago, the Mazda Factory sent new rotary engines here to supply a racing team with spares, the only thing missing in the engines was the seals on the rotor tips. This was done to allow the engine to be imported as parts, and skirt a near endless pile of red tape and expense. One needs to research this, and it’s likely that all can be put in one crate and still be called parts, I have only so much of life’s energy to expend detailing a blue print.
My goal has been to help spread the word that these engines could be imported in various ways, and you need put the whole concept together to know that I am not suggesting anyone break the law!
See another post I made about the CHP society, and do know that the EPA now has a partnership program for CHP experimenters, AND the EPA does grant waviers to those who build CHP power plants. Do consider that this is eaxctly what most of us do with our stationary power plants, heat is a valuable by product and should be put to use! In addition, there is all kinds of room in Stationary Applications to clean up the exhaust. As an experimenter, perhaps there’s a case to plumb your engine’s exhaust into a certified wood stove burning hot, and see what your emissions look like coming out of the stove? Maybe your have 100 other ideas to try, many of us do 🙂
But most important, the EPA is convinced that they will be controlling every aspect of your life in the near future, and they are in the process of building an empire to help you in every way possible. There are now people in the EPA (good people with good intentions) that need put something on their list of accomplishments to assure they get that big raise at the end of the year, or maybe justify all the head count they added last month? Some are very anxious to work with groups like the CHP experimenters, and claim the effort to steer you in the right direction. Here’s your potential pass and exemption if you don’t want to be a law breaker.
I have only so much energy and time, some one needs to do a little more research and prove that shipping a short block and other parts in the same box IS still shipping parts, not an engine that need meet emissions standards of one type or another. Do note that 20 engines were admitted to the USA complete with an EPA wavier for CHP applications.
The average Western mind is as flawed as the average Indian mind, just in different ways.. We Western people can’t seem to comprehend that all is not done as it is in Kansas! Countless times, I see a lost soul report that the XYZ brand engine is a Gem! He reports this just after opening the crate, and his environment has done nothing to prepare him for the reality that identical crates can contain very different engines with the same name plates, one can be quite nice, the other cose to junk. It reminds me of that guy who thought his simple modifications to a diesel engine was nettign him around a 40 percent increase in power! His moniker was ‘Polaris’ and he was certain he was the “guiding star”, In realilty, he just didn’t understand the formula for power, he was using ExI when he really needed to use ExIxPF 🙂 We all need to be skeptical.. skeptical of all we do as well! I’m forever the Student, as I learn somehtign newevery day 🙂
I offer the blue print, I didn’t invent it, I borrowed if from the racing world, from shot gun news, for the prohibition years, from corrupt elected Government Officials who have been twistign the rules for their personal benifit long before we were ever born 🙂
There’s a new thing going on, watch and learn! you got any interest in an electronic parts business? Consider selling! Do a few Google searches, and you’ll see that the Chinese are able to send you parts for dirt cheap direct from mainland china. Now… look into buying a set of piston rings from India, the shipping charges might be on the order of ten times as great! Go to Ebay and look for solid state relays, or relays in general, look at who is selling what and what for. regardless of what we want to think, many decisions to purchase is driven by price alone, and in some cases quality can be nearly as good, the challenge is to know when the Quality provided meets your need.
At present, Indians don’t seem to be able to work together to engineer methods to deliver products to foreign markets where they can compete with the Chinese. I’m sure the Chinese government has been a help to manufacturers there by helping to consolidate frieght between China and the USA on a regular schedule, I’d bet they can deliver a set of piston rings here for 1/10 the price India will charge you.
Meanwhile, the US Government will likely load on more taxes and regulations to Small Businees owners here; so Government can use the money to distribute more entitlements to those who will vote for their promised free lunch… exactly as they did in Greece 🙂
We once paid on the order of $280 for a 6/1 dock side India, that’s now more like $800. And still our Government doesn’t seem to note the serious inflation of our dollar. It’s not that we voted in stupid people, it’s that voters demand the impossible, and they have decided to promsie it to stay in power…. for at least a while….
In india, many consider the Lister Type twins a thing of the past, the larger singles are more in demand, and the twins you recieve may be of very poor quality because they may be a special order, and not put together with any level of quality control, don’t assume anything, or you’ll likley get burned..
The EPA is building an Empire larger than anything Athens ever thought of, the reason I mention this, because there are a a lot of people